Shannon Putman: Hello everybody.
A long drawn out yellow for today because I am so excited for today's episode.
I am here with the impeccable Laura Lynn Gonzalez.
She is the CEO of 10 K Science and I could not be more thrilled to chat with another powerful female in the world of technology.
Laura, welcome.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Great to be here, Shannon.
Shannon Putman: Thank you for being here.
I really appreciate you heading on into the Pop, as I like to say.
And I mentioned that you're the CEO and founder of 10 K Science.
Could you let everybody know what that actually is?
I.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: So 10 K science is our software for immersive science education.
So you know, zoom inside the body, explore treatments for sickle cell.
Explore an invasive species.
Basically, we work with scientists to visualize their data and then we turn that into educational experiences for high school and early college.
Shannon Putman: Wonderful.
And so it's kind of giving a little bit of like magic schoolhouse type vibes.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: No, that's true, except it's for kind of upperclassmen more.
More so
Shannon Putman: Yes.
The sophisticated magic school bus, I
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: it's magic school bus, but with real science data.
Shannon Putman: Yes.
I love that.
Exactly.
So you said, you know, you can go inside the body with sickle cell, and I know I absolutely love the invasive species experience, especially as somebody who, the only thing I remember from high school and photosynthesis is like, you know, it's the sun and plants or whatever.
So, can you kinda give a little bit more of a breakdown of some of the things that students actually experience inside 10 K Science?
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Sure.
So so the invasive species experience is called Trouble and Sunshine Creek, and it's actually based on the research of a woman.
Her name is Elizabeth Clark and she's a PhD at, she was a postdoc at Berkeley at the time, and what she does is she's.
Scans a tiny bug called the glassy wing sharpshooter with a particle accelerator because they're so tiny.
And the thing about the sharpshooter is that it spreads a bacteria into various cache crops like grape blinds or olive trees.
And so, and spreads a disease called pierce's disease, which causes leaf scorch, yellowing leaves, and you know, it's a very big, expensive problem in agriculture.
So she, her lab studied.
Like the mouthpiece and how it spreads the bacteria.
They do fluid dynamics modeling and you know, it's all very you know, complex science.
But ultimately what they have are these beautiful 3D models of insects, right?
And so we built this experience with her where you're in a vineyard and you know, why are the leaves yellowing?
Zoom in into this, the leaf and see the sharp shooters, see the bacteria, see bacterial genetics, and learn about bacterial genetics.
Learn about some photosynthesis.
Some, you know, plant nutrition and, and things like that.
So each experience kind of spans a bunch of different topics and can be as complex or as simple as you would need for, you know, different age levels.
Shannon Putman: Fascinating and I, you know, when people hear it and.
And here you explaining, you know, they might think, oh, that's great for like scientists or, you know, biologists, those kind of things.
But it actually is a lot more cross-disciplinary.
A lot of the programs I've seen here in Kentucky, there's a lot of ag science things like that.
And so, you know, are you seeing that users across different industries are wanting to actually dive deeper into the science of what might affect their
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
So in science education right now, the big trend, I mean, it's not really a trend.
It's a movement.
It's a movement towards teaching the process of science versus scientific fact because as you know, in science.
We generate more and more and more data, more facts every year, and it's too much to teach, especially at a high school level.
And so what they've shifted to is how to think like a scientist, how to, you know, how to immerse yourself in sort of like a real science problem because you know when a high schooler learn science.
The content is so far removed from their everyday experience that they're completely disengaged.
They don't see the relevance to their daily lives, and so by anchoring.
Our experiences in real science problems, like why are scientists doing this research?
Right?
Every scientist has a story.
So using that kernel of truth to build a storyline around really resonates with kids and kind of anchors it in a way that, you know, learning about the cell in an abstract context wouldn't,
Shannon Putman: I love that it's you know, the different trends we've see in education, like project based learning, like that's just quality instruction.
So you know, as somebody who would've really.
Benefited from the process being explained.
I love that that's happening and that you guys are embracing that as well.
And you know, you've mentioned a lot of science and you know, not going political, but I know a lot of people, you know, science can be, who knew it could be controversial right now.
But what is it that really kind of inspired you to want to get into the, you know, XR and even the education space?
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
So I got my start doing biomedical visualization.
So in the beginning it was animations and I worked with scientists and I worked with educators to create, you know, 3D animations based on real structural data sets.
So you know, I had a professor.
Advisor in undergrad who said, why are all the textbook illustrations like, you know, noodles and berries, so to speak?
Like, they're these like blobs.
He's like, we actually know the shapes of them and the shapes are really important.
Right?
And they're like, these 3D shapes and they fit together and the way they fit together causes reactions, causes things to happen.
And so it became, you know, that kind of kicked me off on this mission.
Like, hey, we have the structural data.
Why not show the actual structures and actually what's going on down there to students?
Shannon Putman: Absolutely.
I love that.
And we know that when we create a learning experience for students, it leads to, you know, better retention, you know, greater understanding of the topic.
And so what are some key features of the experiences that you have in 10 K Science that.
Highlight, you know, kind of the levels that you guys have gone to ensure a quality learning experience.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: so I think, you know, I mentioned engagement before.
And when you know vr, that's what it does, it, it is engaging, right?
You're the student is kind of locked into the headset.
They can't use their phone, they're immersed in it.
We, you know, use that to our advantage.
We're taking them places they can't go otherwise.
Right.
That's kind of our differentiator, I would say from a lot of other science learning apps.
But I think we have, what we developed is, you know, so anytime you're in an interactive experience.
And it's, you can control where you're going and you can do whatever you want.
Whenever you introduce a learning goal what happens a lot of the time is that you end up having to make it this linear experience instead of this fully navigable like user controlled experience.
And so there's always been this tension in my work over the years developing interactives.
You know, if you have to have the user learn something or do something in particular, you end up really limiting their interactivity.
And so what we developed was we're using AI to create a guide system where, which is basically like an audio tour.
That asks the students questions once in a while or prompts them to make an observation like, you're on the surface of the bone.
What do you see?
I see blood vessels.
That's correct.
You know, so we give them a little bit of personalized feedback, but mostly we are surfacing, you know, what the user, what the students are thinking so that teachers can kind of see that.
So we have a dashboard functionality for teachers.
It show shows them summaries of, you know, what the students were thinking as they were using it and how are they learning, basically.
And the beauty of it is that it's this hybrid of a linear experience with, but one that allows the students to go off the rails and explore freely, so we're not locking them into it.
And so that's what I'm, I'm most excited about that feature in particular.
Also, I never to record another voiceover in my life thanks to ai, which is amazing.
Shannon Putman: somebody who doesn't like hearing her own voice, I, can I can praise that as well.
And there's so many wonderful things to unpack in, in what you just said.
And I'm, I wanna start with the idea of control.
You know, you said like, I. Controlled the learning experience and everything.
VR in general is very intimidating to educators 'cause they feel like they're control.
You know, I can't see what they're doing or you know, it's replacing me and I don't have control anymore.
And that's not what it is.
And I think your feature especially leads to what we, what should be happening is that they have this learning experience, but it doesn't end there.
The educator's, the one that keeps it going and continues the learning process of it.
And then also too, with the idea of asking them questions and then making them tell you in their own words.
I absolutely love that because a lot of the times in this software you'll see, it'll ask 'em questions and they, you know, point at a multiple choice and pick the answer or something that.
Whereas this is totally different.
And as I did it and even I was like, Ooh, how do I wanna explain Seeing and it really went deeper into my learning process.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah, and I think it I think it provides a lot of value also, you know, I, I would've kind of hated it in high school as a reader, writer, kind, type of learner, you know, not an auditory learner.
I think I would've disliked it a little bit in high school, but I think it would've been a really good for me to practice articulating, you know, my thoughts, especially, you know, abstract, not fully formed thoughts.
Shannon Putman: Yeah, absolutely.
Challenge us to do something that's, you know, might be hard for us.
And I also like it too because it is it.
It's really accessible for all different kinds of students at all different levels.
And as everybody knows, accessibility, you know, is massively important to me.
And so how are you finding that VR is able to potentially reach some students that, you know, maybe are typical 2D experiences?
Haven't been able to in the past.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah, I think it's the, you know, like the typical answer is like, you know, it's immersive, it's embodied, right?
They're, they're there, they are, you know, kind of forced to really be a part of the experience, which, you know, anchors them, them to it.
I think, you know, so for me.
I you know, biology is one of those things that I don't actually think that, I think needlessly weeds out potential biology superstars because, you know, the prerequisite to understanding biology is being able to read paragraphs and paragraphs of text and like visualize what you're reading about and.
You know, even if our reading levels were as high as they should be, I don't even, I don't think that like being able to visualize things is a super common skillset and I don't think that it's necessarily a prerequisite.
It should be a prerequisite.
I think that maybe we're missing out on brilliant lab scientists.
Like, you know, I'm really good at visualizing stuff, but I didn't go and become a scientist.
So I, I think the system kind of chose the wrong person in, in a lot of ways.
So maybe they're, you know, we're missing out on people who have, like, patience for lab work or brilliant experimentalists.
Right?
So that's kind of my, my, my mission, one of my missions.
Shannon Putman: Well, and I love that because somebody who isn't good at visualization, my spatial awareness is not very good.
And I've always struggled with it, but you know, I've always been a great athlete.
So people always thought, you know, oh, a good hand eye coordination, you know, that.
And they're actually completely different skills and I've always struggled with it.
And so then, you know, like I look back at high school physics and you know, I had.
Bofski if you're still around Marcellas High School who was horrible to me and made me despise, you know, science general.
And I know I do.
That's what's nice about having your own podcast.
You can call people out now Bofski was one of 'em.
But you know, it, it does, I think there's students who.
Because of a lack of exposure and a lack of anybody even you know, telling them that this is a career that they could possibly go into, we're missing out on some genius minds.
And even if they're not genius minds, quote unquote, that doesn't mean they don't have aptitude and skills for science careers.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah, absolutely.
Shannon Putman: We've especially seen that, you know, everybody knows with women and everything, you know, that it's not a highly, you know, and then women in tech and women in science in general.
And so, I love that you create this experience that allows students to see the fun in it and actually give them the thought, like, this is something I could do.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
We did some interviews as part of our pilot study with we work with Oakland School for the Arts, which is two blocks away from our office.
It's an amazing charter school in Oakland.
Really cool kids but kind of not the traditional, you know, science geek types there.
It's a performing arts school, so it's a really interesting test population, I think for, for us.
But we did some interviews and one of the girls was like, you know, the, the question was like, what do you want?
Or what did you learn today?
You know, she said, I learned I wanna be a doctor because I wanna help people.
So I that, I thought that was cool.
Shannon Putman: That's awesome.
I would, you would never expect that.
You know,
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: yeah,
Shannon Putman: and I think that's fascinating that we always are checking in with ourselves too and seeing, you know, what pre, you know, conceived notions we have and we might be inadvertently putting on, on, on some of our students.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
Shannon Putman: I see.
So, you know, the whole thing, like I've been, everybody's sick of hearing me on my soapbox, but you know, I've been saying that VR is not as far along as the industry thinks it is, especially in education.
But what are some kind of like misconceptions that you think educators might have about vr.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: I think I run into, still, I run into teachers who still think of VR as Google Cardboard, and I personally, I just think that it was a big misstep to have pushed it so hard back then.
Because it made our jobs now kind of more difficult with clearing up misconceptions.
You know, as you know, six D is amazing.
3D is like, okay.
You know, and especially, you know, the lower powered equipment is it's really difficult to develop for, really difficult to opt.
It was really difficult to optimize.
And so a lot of the experiences ended up being very, you know, as, you know, low frame rate, you know, subpar visuals.
And so it's a completely different world now.
Also many teachers and educators don't realize how cheap the headsets are or that you don't need a computer.
So, you know, very basic stuff actually, that is very surprising to me that I still run into.
Shannon Putman: I would also like to put a disclaimer on that, that I did not pay you to say And I, this had video, people would see the biggest, you know, us eat and grin on my right now because Thank you.
That's.
Exactly what I've been saying.
And when people ask me about certain things, you know, like, like expeditions, which in overall did great to, you know, like let everybody in on, on, on what VR is, but it also set up this false narrative that a, that's.
The quality of the technology now and that all the kids have to be on at the same time.
can't stand that.
You don't have to have an entire class.
And I always say three ddo experiences are still fantastic, but three DDO headsets for me, unless obviously there's always certain circumstances.
I'm not saying that, but in general and in education especially when people ask me about some of those, I'm like, yes.
And I also have a rotary phone if you would like to call me.
And they look at me like, and I'm like, yes.
That's how old that technology is.
Like we have can do so much more, but we have to actually learn and teach our educators the technology
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Mm-hmm.
Shannon Putman: you know just like we did with Chromebooks, it like we just handed it to 'em and said, okay, you're good to go.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah,
Shannon Putman: they had to learn what a Google classroom was.
They had to learn how to create Google Slides content and everything.
And it's the same thing.
So
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
Shannon Putman: thank you for saying that.
That was amazing.
I couldn't have planned that any better.
it was completely unsolicited but kind of along the, not that I like to be right at all.
No.
But along those lines too, what are you kind of excited about for the future of like, XR and education?
Is there any, you know, features, any things that, that's really getting you pumped up?
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: yeah.
The future of xr.
Yeah, I mean, I think like somebody is gonna hit on the winning, winning combo for schools.
We need our like Apple two, two e moment, right?
For schools to adopt it.
So, you know, I'm looking, I'm looking forward to that point.
I think it's becoming, people are still continuously excited about it, I think even as the years go by.
And I think, yeah, we're just looking for that tipping point where there's gonna be some kind of mass adoption.
Shannon Putman: If any big companies are listening, Putman Consulting trying to do just that right now.
So just everybody know that's the model I literally just said, and probably every other podcast too whoever wants to do the Apple, you know, Mo Apple, Google model.
And so again, another, it's almost like what we're saying is like.
Correct.
And multiple people are saying it.
How odd.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I mean, as a, I think I'm also dating myself like as a Oregon trail generation, you know, kind of person.
Like,
Shannon Putman: Well,
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: played Oregon Trail on the Apple, two E in, in schools.
You know,
Shannon Putman: yes, but it
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: huge moment.
Shannon Putman: huge generation of Apple users.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
Shannon Putman: And Google did the same thing with Chromebook.
It's created a huge generation of, you know, of the Chrome Suite users.
And it's right there for the taking
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
Well, and the kids are already on the headsets.
I mean, from what I hear, they go home and play gorilla tag or whatever.
Shannon Putman: Yes.
Gorilla Tag if you wanna sponsor the podcast.
We'll, I'll shout you out.
I played it for an hour one night and I burned per my Apple Watch 117 calories.
It was.
Nuts.
But yeah, exactly.
So, you know, my hope is that as we make things more exciting and accessible it's just gonna continue down the path we're doing and along, you know, kind of those lines of e exciting, you know, I think.
Everybody also thinks that every experience has to be gamified and fun sense to it.
And I don't think that everything does, you know?
I think that gamification has its place, and I'm obviously a huge fan of it, but I really like your software because it it feels, you know, I said Magic School bus and we said the more sophisticated, but that's because it isn't gimmicky.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Shannon Putman: true to you know, true to the science.
So, you know, was that a concerted effort when you were developing this, that you wanted to kind of find that balance between fun but yet.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, I think fun, you know, I've thought a lot about this over the years.
Be as somebody who has worked on, you know, more game science interactives and less game science interactives and, you know, whole spectrum you know, is going for a walk in the woods fun.
Is it a game?
You know what I mean?
It doesn't necessarily have to be a game to be fun.
And in fact my one of my old bosses, my pi on some pro early education projects always used to use this sort of narrative.
Like, okay, you go for a walk in the woods with your friend and you have a wonderful time.
It's beautiful, it's lots of flowers and trees and you know, it's wonderful, right?
But then you go for that same walk with.
A naturalist, right?
Scientist.
They're pointing out the different types of flowers.
They're like pointing out, you know, some kind of salamander that's really interesting.
It's a completely different experience.
And so that's, that's kind of how we design our experiences.
Like you can just go in and experience it and it's awesome because it's based on real, real stuff, right?
There's real structures.
And so it has this like natural, beautiful.
Like tangible property, right?
But then you can go through that same experience and learn about all of the different stuff that's in that environment.
So I think that's my answer.
Shannon Putman: Yeah, that's incredibly intriguing too, because as I sit here, you know, and I think about that and you said as a walk in the woods fond.
Well, as somebody who grew up in upstate New York and in nature and everything, there was little things that I had taken advantage of, like, not taken advantage of, but I'd taken for granted.
Excuse me.
And I didn't even realize.
And when we took a group of kids from Cochran Ary big up 500 West Goldberg we took 'em out to a, like a Boy scout type camp for a sleepover.
And at one point the wind blew really hard and it blew a bunch of leaves off the trees.
And so they were falling and kids like freaked out and they were like running under 'em and everything.
And, and at first one teacher was like, gonna go stop 'em.
And I was like no, just let 'em go.
And I'm like, they've literally never experienced leaves falling off tree.
So I was like, and they just loved it.
And like obviously as used to have to rake leaves and jumped in piles and all that stuff, like I, that's something, you know, I'd taken for granted.
So yes, I think absolutely nature can in and of itself is the excitement
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Right.
Exactly.
Shannon Putman: man, they'd never seen a cow either.
So was a real big weekend for 'em.
Real big.
And those experiences, you know, are some of the first things that get cut with budgets and stuff.
So to find a way to still inspire kids with experiences like that.
And that's why I love 10 K Science 'cause it's exactly what it does.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
Shannon Putman: So this has been absolutely glorious.
I've had a delightful time chatting with you and catching up and I'm, of course put all the links in the, you know, podcast, whatever it is that they do.
But is there anything and of course if anybody you know, is interested, they can always go to, you know, contact Putman Consulting.
But is there any place or anything you wanna tell listeners about if they wanna check out 10 K Science?
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: No, I mean, we're available on, you know, the Meta Quest meta Horizon store, I think it is now called.
And we're about to launch a web viewer as well.
I'm speaking of accessibility, like, you know, it's, it's just a, it's just a fact like.
There's gonna be a certain percentage of kids who have a history of seizures or severe motion sickness who aren't gonna be able to use vr.
And so we have a really great web viewer, which is, I'm also really just excited about 3D on the web, you know, in general.
So I think the time is now for, for 3D, you know?
Shannon Putman: Yes, absolutely.
There's even 3D models and PowerPoints like, so come on.
We need embrace it.
And that's also a great point too because you know, I never force a headset on a student.
I try to encourage 'em everything, but you know, sometimes they just don't want to, and that has to be okay.
So I love that you're making that accessibility decision.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
Shannon Putman: good.
Laura, thank you so much for joining us.
It has been absolutely, I said delightful before, but been a pure treat and it has been my pleasure.
And I just wanna thank you for a always being supportive me and my work and for being an amazing, you know, leader in this industry, especially as a female leader and somebody I look up to.
So thank you for everything that you're doing, and thank you for the support to me and
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Of course.
Shannon Putman: by the pop.
Laura Lynn Gonzalez: Yeah.
Thanks Shannon.
This has been great.