Sabarinath C Nair
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[00:00:00] Shannon Putman: , yellow, and welcome everybody again to another exciting episode of Putman's podcast Pops. I could be not be more thrilled to be with my friend Sabarinath.
[00:00:09] Shannon Putman: Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and just kind of tell everybody who you are and what you do.
[00:00:15] Sabarinath C Nair: Yes, so my name is Sabarinath Nair. I am the founder and CEO of skill. Very, we are a tech company that builds simulations in mixed reality and virtual reality for the CTE trade. So any. Hard skill like welding spray painting, collision repair, HVAC mechanic, solar panel insulation, or CNC operator. These are the traits that you can learn in a very different way with mixed charity and virtual reality.
[00:00:46] Sabarinath C Nair: Using my products, this is being used by over a hundred schools across North America.
[00:00:52] Shannon Putman: Awesome. You mentioned in there quickly mixed reality, and I know a lot of people who are new to the virtual reality field in general might not know exactly what that is, so could you kind of just expand a little bit on that and why that is so important with your training?
[00:01:09] Sabarinath C Nair: Yes. So, I would say virtual reality is when you have a headset on and then you are taken to a different world. You don't see the real world at all. And then you have augmented reality that works on a phone where you see something through your phone's camera on your screen, on the screen of the phone, and then you see something overlaid on top of that.
[00:01:31] Sabarinath C Nair: The advantage with AR is that you are able to see the real world, but the disadvantage is that it doesn't have the depth perception because you're seeing it on a 2D screen. So mixed reality sort of blends both virtual reality and. Augmented reality by allowing you to see the real world, but selectively bringing in objects that are only in the virtual world.
[00:01:50] Sabarinath C Nair: So these two worlds blend. So from a end user perspective for a trainer or for a teacher or for a student who is learning a new trait being able to see the people around them, being able to see the real room, where they're operating in and also seeing the virtual equipment that they're going to operate and train on.
[00:02:07] Sabarinath C Nair: Makes them not feel claustrophobic. They feel comfortable in practicing for us continuously as opposed to having a headache or not feeling tired after a few minutes of practice. So that's what means a lot for the teachers and the students of skill traits when they use mixed reality instead of virtual or augmented.
[00:02:28] Shannon Putman: And you mentioned still being able to see people and we kinda got to see this in person when we were together and we were talking with a professor from the California School for the deaf and accessibility is always very important to me and that high. Highlighted your mixed reality feature, and so we were able to still have the user in the headset doing the activity, but seeing their interpreter.
[00:02:53] Shannon Putman: Can you kinda speak just a little bit to why that was a little different?
[00:02:56] Sabarinath C Nair: Yes. So this is actually an eye-opening session for me. I'm glad you were there, Shannon when this happened and you could get this on video also. So usually when I guide a first time user of my product. I let the person wear the headset and then I watch what's happening inside, through the special screen casting app that we wrote for this purpose.
[00:03:20] Sabarinath C Nair: And then I guide orally by, by giving instructions by word on what needs to be done. And then we had this hearing challenged person who was with us and then in a normal way we could not have helped him to use my product. And thankfully because of mixed reality, we were able to help him see his interpreter who converted my English words to the sign language.
[00:03:45] Sabarinath C Nair: And so we were able to guide him to use the product quite easily. And that is a very satisfying satisfying situation, I should say and a pleasant surprise that my, my product was much more inclusive than I initially thought it to be.
[00:04:02] Shannon Putman: Yes, it was, and it warms my heart as a former teacher of deaf ed. And so that's a kind of key point, I think, is that there's a lot more accessibility that sometimes people just don't even know that they either have or need to have. And so some of those, you know, real world learning experiences are why I think this technology is so exciting. Speaking of your technology, I have tried a lot of different simulations and a lot of different training, especially in the career tech ed field, and yours has stood out for a couple of different key features, one of those being the actual guidance through the lessons I. Of your system. So instead of just letting people practice and this, that and the other, you have taken a very systematic approach to how you guide and teach your users through your system.
[00:04:53] Shannon Putman: So can you kind of touch a little bit on that and why it's so effective?
[00:04:57] Sabarinath C Nair: Yes. So when we first started building this product, I looked at other similar products in the market, and I found that most of these simulations were trying to mimic the welder machine or the sprayer machine. Whereas what we needed was a tool in the hands of the teacher to be able to quickly train on the skills that they have to the students.
[00:05:19] Sabarinath C Nair: unlike earlier days when you build a state of the art training center and then hope that people will walk in, you can take the training center on a backpack, which is very lightweight, and take it to wherever the students are, and then get them interested to come to the skill trades, which is quite a difficult task by itself.
[00:05:37] Sabarinath C Nair: And then your training center could become a hub. And then each of these portable. Headsets could become the spoke, so a hub and spoke model that can scale very fast across the entire country. That's what we envision.
[00:05:49] Shannon Putman: And as somebody who has one of those backpacks, I can attest it is very lightweight, very easy to take with you, and everything's all in there, including something that I think is one of the most exciting features, which is the actual physical gun. And so I.
[00:06:04] Sabarinath C Nair: yep.
[00:06:05] Shannon Putman: The software works fantastically on the headset with the controller.
[00:06:08] Shannon Putman: It's awesome. You know, you don't have to have it. However, what I like to say is kind of that gold, silver, bronze, like when we're looking for that gold, it includes that gun. So can you kind of let people know what I'm talking about when I say that and why it's so unique?
[00:06:23] Sabarinath C Nair: Yes. So traditionally I think, you know, the way the technology also has evolved, so earlier, virtual reality has been around for like. 50 years, but the ecosystem has not been favorable until recently. So now you have so earlier you had this distinction between what is virtual and what is real. And now these worlds are blending.
[00:06:44] Sabarinath C Nair: And so it's possible to bring in any tool, not just a welding gun or a spray gun, but any tool that you might use in the real world and then blend it seamlessly into the virtual world so that without wasting material or without getting hurt in the early attempts. You get the weight and the feel of a real welding gun and so, a beginner could start with just using the controllers or their real hands to start the practice, but before they get onto the actual equipment, it is good for you to practice with the integration of a real welding gun with a virtual reality or a headset.
[00:07:18] Sabarinath C Nair: So this makes a lot of difference with. Being able to handle the weight of the gun and, you know, different positions where it, sometimes it might be quite awkward for you to operate the equipment. So you get used to all of that. Then have a very easy life with just the virtual reality controllers.
[00:07:32] Sabarinath C Nair: So, I would say like this, you know, sometimes when we use just the controllers, even though visually it is all good, but it might be easier than the real world and we don't want somebody to go into a trade with. With that kind of a wrong notion. So this helps. And the other factor that helps us, I would say, is that the same equipment can have multiple attachments.
[00:07:55] Sabarinath C Nair: So the same headset can have a welding gun, the same headset can have a collision repair spray gun. It can have a blasting gun, which is quite huge. You keep it on a shoulder. So all of these different attachments can be attached and. The software could run multiple skills. So the school that makes an investment into a mixed reality or a virtual reality lab is able to get a good ROI on the investment that they make by handling more students, more trades within the same platform.
[00:08:24] Sabarinath C Nair: I.
[00:08:25] Shannon Putman: Absolutely. And we've been kind of just focusing on welding in general in our conversation. But you're right, it's not just the welding it, that's just the one that kind of pops out to people. But the spray gun. Especially was fascinating to me because like you said, that weight, so you can actually put that liquid in it and there's a significant difference in, in just a controller and then a gun, and then a controller, a gun, and then a gun filled with a material.
[00:08:50] Shannon Putman: And when we met one gentleman, he had been a spray. Been in the spray profession for years and he actually showed us his hand and he had this huge, like callous in between his thumb and his pointer finger. And he is like, that's what, 30 years of spraying it'll get you. And I was like, holy cow. It's entire muscles that people probably wouldn't even think of when going into these fields.
[00:09:14] Sabarinath C Nair: Yep.
[00:09:16] Shannon Putman: And I was fascinated also by the fact that I don't wanna give away your secrets, however, I wanna brag on you because there's a feature that you have in your system that I have not experienced in any others. When I actually turn on that welding gun. The whole thing goes black, and it's like I'm looking through the actual helmet and the thickness of that glass, and that to me really took it over the edge because I.
[00:09:45] Shannon Putman: It as somebody who's been in VR since 2016, it actually kind of startled me and I don't get startled a lot in VR anymore. And so it's the attention to detail that I think is what sets skill vary apart. So did you do a lot of research, like hands-on experience? Like how did you just nail everything in?
[00:10:06] Shannon Putman: In my opinion.
[00:10:07] Sabarinath C Nair: I think it's one is the commitment to make it meaningful for the end user. I mean, we do things in VR and Mr because we believe that it'll make a positive impact on the end user, not because VR is the cool thing to do. And so when I started this company 14 years back, the first day of my in this role, I spent in a factory trying to learn welding myself.
[00:10:30] Sabarinath C Nair: So I'm a computer science person, so I didn't know welding before, so I wanted to look at welding like no or no, well start looking at, so I spent time welding and learning, welding myself, and then trying to talk to real practitioners and finding out. What were the things that they used in the real world to know what is right, what is wrong?
[00:10:52] Sabarinath C Nair: So one feedback that came early on and again, this is possibly only available in skill. Very so in, in welding, when you do the weld and depending on your distance, the sound of welding would change. This is something I learned on day one 14 years back when I was working with an expert welder, and he was just walking along the shop floor of that factory and then.
[00:11:13] Sabarinath C Nair: He would listen to the sound of welding coming from each of the welder machines. And then he would say, which person is doing it? Right? Which person is doing it wrong?
[00:11:20] Shannon Putman: Oh,
[00:11:21] Sabarinath C Nair: So we felt, you know, somebody's learned it over a period of time. In what way can we use technology to, to transfer this learning on day one itself?
[00:11:30] Sabarinath C Nair: And same way with spray painting, you know, you have different kinds of nozzles. You can not all of the paint material can be sprayed on all the nozzles, so. So in our software you have a filter where if you, depending on what paint you select, you have to select the appropriate nozzle. And not everything can be sprayed with everything.
[00:11:48] Sabarinath C Nair: And same way with welding also. So we have different materials and then different metals need different shielding gases. So depending on what you select, you can only choose from a set of gases before you start welding. So you've tried to make it as real world as possible. And the other thing I would say is that we have made it.
[00:12:07] Sabarinath C Nair: Ground up for an immersive learning experience. So, if you look at human and computer interaction, we started with punch cards first, and then we got the mouse where you move something on your desk and something else moves on your 2D screen. Then we got onto the touch screen where you know you're seeing something, you're going and touching it where you want some action to happen.
[00:12:29] Sabarinath C Nair: All of these are not exactly natural interactions, but but in, in vr or you have the Naturality being a core feature, so you interact with something, if have to go pick up a bottle from my desk, I bring my hand and just pick it up. So, we decide everything in our software to be the same way as natural as possible.
[00:12:49] Sabarinath C Nair: So retaining the detail of the skill and then trying to blend it with, how would you do it in the real world?
[00:12:55] Shannon Putman: I think that's important and a critical feature that. People don't, I don't think they necessarily, if they're kind of new to it or they haven't really done it a lot, they don't even realize it's happening. But maintaining that presence as we like to call so that, you know, we know through research that the brain can't distinguish between the virtual world and the real world, the physical world, when certain thresholds are met.
[00:13:18] Shannon Putman: And so that's very powerful. So you wanna get it right, like you said, you don't wanna train them in that powerful of an environment and have it be wrong.
[00:13:27] Sabarinath C Nair: Yeah, true. That's a huge responsibility. Right? In, in a sense. I've had situations where somebody who was using a competitor product had told me that they stopped using it other than for attracting kids for recruitment because they figured that they were learning the wrong things, and it took a much longer time to unlearn the muscle memory, which was wrongly conveyed.
[00:13:50] Sabarinath C Nair: So we have to be very ca careful and responsible when we use tech for teaching kids. We don't want to, you know, do something bad to the next generation.
[00:14:01] Shannon Putman: Right, exactly. And you know, there's people who are already concerned about the safety of it, and I know people are worried, oh, it's replacing us, or this or that, and it feels very dystopian sometimes. So we always wanna ensure that. We're to continue to get people to join the community that, you know, we're taking all those steps to make sure everything is safe and effective, especially if it involves a, you know, a financial investment, which we know is usually one of the giant barriers to anybody even starting vr.
[00:14:32] Shannon Putman: And one of the things that I also love about Skill very is the different options and availability that you have. I have found that. A lot of the industry, and I didn't even know what they were called until I finally asked was you know, they, the beginning welding involved those coupons, which are, you know, those welding pieces like, and everybody wanted to use those.
[00:14:53] Shannon Putman: And so you're like, yeah, we include them, but once you get in there, and so I found that as much as I've been using it with people, nobody's ever even asked for 'em once they tried the software. But you ev, you. Provide multiple different options for different budgets and availability. So can you kind of just touch on a, I think it's a steal, but why you've done that and what the importance of having those options for people are.
[00:15:19] Sabarinath C Nair: Yes. So, I think the fact remains that even at the top most costliest product that's around it still makes sense to use VR to train because of the various benefits, like not just the material saving, but also the data analytics that you get. But then if someone has to spend something upwards of $25,000 on one single equipment, then.
[00:15:40] Sabarinath C Nair: A lot of thinking has to go in. I know people may not want to make such an investment upfront before starting to see the benefits of it, and sometimes you figure that, you know, what might be compulsory for a two year community college program may not be required for a career exploration program in a high school or a middle school.
[00:15:59] Sabarinath C Nair: So you don't need the top most. Product for everybody. It's not a one size fits all. Instead, what we can do, since we, we built the software ourselves, we built the product ourselves, we can try and segment it out for beginners intermediate and then advance. So, so instead of having to spend upwards of $25,000 on one single equipment, and then you might need five of them for engaging a whole class.
[00:16:31] Sabarinath C Nair: For the career exploration and the fundamentals, we start with a 3,800 for a one year license for five devices. So what I also find is that many schools might already have a lot of headsets lying around because of some investment they may have made in the past. So our flexibility allows them to start utilizing those existing headsets with just the software that they can purchase from us.
[00:16:54] Sabarinath C Nair: And if it's a Quest two, quest three or a Pico Neo four onwards we have the option for them to purchase the real welding gun or the spray gun as an attachment, as an add-on. So you start at something as low as $700 per device per year, but you can have the full you can upgrade at any point to the full fledged system with all the specialist.
[00:17:19] Sabarinath C Nair: Training models available. So, for example, let me again, I keep going back to welding. So in, in welding you learn the standard lessons, but then the, once you learn the standard lessons you are put in an automotive environment. You are put in a oil and gas rig, you are put in on a shipyard, you have to go to a construction site.
[00:17:38] Sabarinath C Nair: So this is what most students love. So you have the site from where you see the Empire State Building, and then you have, uh. You have a railing at the edge of the building where you have to go and stand carefully and weld, even though technically you can't fall down. But in real world, when they have to do these jobs, they have to stay themselves careful and then practice all the safety precautions as well.
[00:18:01] Sabarinath C Nair: So all of these situations are not just theoretical, but also highly practical. And so. You may not need all of that. You can start by using it at the $700 per student per per year, per device. And then keep adding more things as you find more value in it. So, we want to make the entry barrier really low.
[00:18:19] Sabarinath C Nair: So, so that more and more people start using it.
[00:18:23] Shannon Putman: Which is appreciated. And as a. New Yorker, you know, natural, born and raised. I love the Empire State Building, and I love that. Not only because of that 'cause selfishly, but you're exactly right. These students aren't just going to be welding in a classroom. They're not gonna be welding potentially just in a shop.
[00:18:40] Shannon Putman: It's very real world to potential situations that they might actually be in. And the other thing too, that you offer, which I love and which educators will absolutely love, is you offer a lifetime membership.
[00:18:54] Sabarinath C Nair: Yes.
[00:18:55] Shannon Putman: And that's something that is, I haven't seen a lot of either, especially for trying to budget and it to not taking it there, but in today's unsteady, you know, environment of knowing about funding, which was already an issue, but it's like, okay, now I have to budget for this software every year with you guys.
[00:19:12] Shannon Putman: You don't have to do that.
[00:19:14] Sabarinath C Nair: Yeah I mean, sometimes. Every one of us as a consumer start hating that more and more things are becoming a subscription. So, for people who find it convenient, they can use that. But if somebody wants to have it forever, they can have it forever.
[00:19:28] Shannon Putman: Which is awesome, by the way. I love that. And I'll kind of just as we're getting towards the end, but I wanted to see if there's anything that you saw in any trends, kind of things like where do you kinda see your prediction on. The whole gamut. Mixed reality, virtual reality, you know, skills, training, whatever.
[00:19:49] Shannon Putman: Is there anything that you're seeing and that you're kind of excited about with? 'cause this technology is developing so quickly, you know, we already know once you walk out of the store with a computer, it's outdated. So what are some of the things that get you excited for new features or anything like that?
[00:20:04] Sabarinath C Nair: Yeah. One is that we want to be in as many manufacturing traits as possible, and, you know, irrespective of, whatever politicians might say, it is quite important that US gets back as much of manufacturing as possible. So we would like to be able to contribute to that as much as possible by having the youth equipped to be able to contribute to the manufacturing sector.
[00:20:25] Sabarinath C Nair: And then so that's one we want to add more and more things within manufacturing in our offerings. The second is that in, in general, I think, vR or MR is at a space where I would say smartphones were 20, 15 years back. So it's gonna be ubiquitous. And I think it, it also puts a lot of responsibility on content creators like us because the more and more people I meet I ask them if they would like to try and they say that, no, I'm scared of er, it gives me a headache.
[00:20:57] Sabarinath C Nair: So that's something we have been very c conscious about. So, am pretty sure you know this, but research says that if there is a delay of more than 30 milliseconds between your actual movement versus when you see it in your eye, then you start feeling giddy and nauseous. So, we are very careful to ensure that the software runs smooth without any delay, without any lag, so that you don't feel fatigued.
[00:21:19] Sabarinath C Nair: Even if you practice for more than 30 minutes at a stretch, and many of these skills would require you to continue to practice for more than 30 minutes at a stretch. So, yeah, so it's important that all simulation developers focus on this experience for the end user, even if the graphics is not as real as we want it to be.
[00:21:37] Sabarinath C Nair: The experience and what we game gamers might say, as the gameplay has to be interesting, they would subconsciously force the kids to keep practicing more and more. Yeah, and I see this now, today we are using it in the areas where it's a factory side of things, but I would think of it coming more in terms of maintenance and all sort of things where earlier you have to refer to a book and then see and correlate and see what it is, identify it.
[00:22:02] Sabarinath C Nair: But, you know, uh, automotive mechanic can wear a headset and then the headset will tell which. Where to look for the break fluid and then how to turn it and how to open it, how to refill it. All of that can be guided live today. It is possible with ar, but I think Mr would make it even better.
[00:22:18] Shannon Putman: I agree. It's like kinda YouTube on your face,
[00:22:21] Sabarinath C Nair: yeah.
[00:22:22] Shannon Putman: that's how so many people learn so much now, you know? And the idea of learning that 3D concept in a 3D format is, what I always go back to is the magic sauce of, you know, of any virtual reality. Gamut. You know, I hate that there's no sorry, grandma.
[00:22:38] Shannon Putman: I dislike that there's no one agreed upon term in the industry. I think they can get very confusing, especially for people that don't know. And so, I try to use the same term, but I. It takes everywhere. But like you said, the idea of also that realtime input, that was critically important. And not only for the feeling, like you said, because people usually, like, they tried like a cardboard headset and a rollercoaster, and I'm like, no, it's nothing like that now.
[00:23:07] Shannon Putman: You know? And, but also, and we've heard this, I've heard this from every person, you know, experienced, welder. You know, any other of the trades that you have that we've put in there is when I pull that trigger, it needs to start and yours does. And so without having that lag, that adds to that Correct.
[00:23:26] Shannon Putman: You know, use, because if you're pausing in VR and it doesn't pause in real life, that's materials, that's mistakes.
[00:23:34] Sabarinath C Nair: Yes.
[00:23:35] Shannon Putman: So, yeah. Well, fantastic job with it. Absolutely. And I mean, I'm gonna post obviously in material the information and everything, but not only is skill very a part of the Putman XR consulting product bundle, but if anybody did want to check anything else out or anything more about skill vary, where would you guide them to look?
[00:23:56] Sabarinath C Nair: We are on on Partner Excel platform. We are on, therefore I think the manage Excel platform. We are on the Arbor Excel platform. We are on the Meta app store.
[00:24:08] Shannon Putman: And you have a robust
[00:24:09] Sabarinath C Nair: soon be, yes, and we should soon be on the PO app store as well,
[00:24:16] Shannon Putman: this has been fantastic. Thank you so much. It has been an honor to have you, and I look forward to many more projects with you. Actually, if anybody in Kentucky hears this, I'll be in Hart County, you know, weather permitting tomorrow. They've already started with skill very, and are thrilled and excited.
[00:24:32] Shannon Putman: So, that's one I kind of closely thought I wanna say is that. You know, when she first contacted me, you know, she was like, Hey can you let 'em know, you know, we're a small, rural Kentucky school, but this would be so important for us and critically, you know, could potentially life changing. And I was like, you know, I only partner with companies that I feel have the same motto as me, which is what's best for students.
[00:24:52] Shannon Putman: And so I reached out to you and right away you were like, yep, we got you. And you've been supportive and there for the rural counties in Kentucky. So. From a non-native Kentuckian who cares about Kentucky A, I wanna say thank you, B be on the lookout for some Hart County highlights everybody because we've got a big event tomorrow and we're really excited.
[00:25:11] Shannon Putman: So thank you for not only supporting our students for, but for just being an awesome guy.
[00:25:16] Sabarinath C Nair: Thank you Sharon. I think the common thread here is that both of us want the kids to benefit from these tools. Absolutely. And a lot of people say that 'cause they think it sounds like good business, but you know, you can tell they don't really follow through. And you g you guys absolutely do. And I'm grateful to know you. I'm lucky to call you a friend and this has been fantastic. Thank you so much.
[00:25:37] Sabarinath C Nair: Thank you Shannon.