Shannon Putman: Hello everybody.
You have tuned your dial to the correct spot.
If people still use dials, it is Putin's podcast pops and I could not be more thrilled and excited to be talking with Mr. Jethro Jones and he is so prepared that he has given me a bio that I'm going to read.
What?
Good job, Jethro.
Thank you.
He is a national award winning former school leader, podcaster and author of the books, how to Be a Transformative Principal and School X, how
Principals can design a Transformative school experience for the People right in front of them, and it has an exclamation point at the end.
Which I completely appreciate 'cause I use them all the time.
He is also the founder of the B Podcast Network, the best educational podcast network out there.
Jethro currently consults school leaders on strategies to help them save time, lead more effectively, and overcome their own weaknesses.
Jethro has worked as a principal at all K through 12 levels, including a prison school, a district coach, distance learning team lead and English teacher.
Also last little tidbit for you, Jethro, is the reason that Putman podcast pops is still rolling.
So Jethro, thank you and welcome.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, my pleasure.
Thanks for being here.
In fact I. Started a VR podcast and then realized my heart wasn't in it and I interviewed you for it.
And then I said, she's the one who needs to do this.
And so then you said, I wanna start a podcast.
And here you are doing a great job and inspiring many people.
And I think that it's just awesome.
So kudos to you for seeing that and taking that baton and saying, I'm gonna do this, and you're doing a great job.
Shannon Putman: Oh, well thank you.
You can't see, but I'm blushing.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I Your podcast.
Open the door for me, A to podcast and b, to just the industry.
And then Jethro wrote this amazing article about me, which I still use.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
And so, I was like, nobody wants to hear this voice talking.
And you're like, no, you need to.
So thank you, Jethro.
This is definitely a blessing for me to know you.
Jethro Jones: Oh, thank you.
Shannon Putman: Well, so, yeah.
So welcome.
And you know, you talk about being Transformative, you know, Transformative Principal.
What do you, what does that exactly mean?
What do you mean by Transformative?
Jethro Jones: Yeah.
What I really mean is that it, we often think that in schools, like it's the same place year in and year out.
And the reality is no matter what you're doing, it's going to be a different school because new people are coming in.
You're gonna get new crop of students every year.
If you're probably gonna get some new teachers, maybe not, but even if you don't, you might get new paraprofessionals.
You might get new custodial staff.
Anytime somebody comes in, then that forces change to happen.
And so my thought is that the way to be a Transformative Principal is to design your school experience for the people that are actually there, which necessitates you designing it a little bit differently every single year.
So people say schools are slow to change and.
Of broad strokes, they probably are, but the reality is that you are forced to change every single year based on who comes to your school.
So rather than reacting to that, I invite people to be proactive designers of their schools and start designing as soon as they know who's coming in, start designing differently to meet the needs of those people, whatever level they're at.
Shannon Putman: I love that.
And I think if you've never been in that school environment from the adult side, you wouldn't understand all of that and in those idiosyncrasies and understand how important and how much change can be affected by just one person coming or going.
So I love that you're talking about that from the administrator standpoint too.
Especially 'cause like I never wanted to be a principal.
I knew that was not in my wheelhouse dealing with teachers and parents.
I just, I don't emotionally have it.
And so.
I think a lot of people don't understand the true power that the administration does have.
So how do you see that the administrator can be the one to effectively implement those changes?
'cause a lot of times people are like, oh, our hands are tied, or this, that, or the other.
But they have more power than I think even they might understand.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, in the same way that a teacher can close her door and teach whatever she wants, basically a principal can go into his or her school and do whatever he or she wants.
And there's a lot of things where people are afraid of getting in trouble and.
It happens.
That's a reality.
And that's sometimes what happens.
But if you don't have values and beliefs that are guiding your decisions and you're just doing whatever the district tells you, then you're not being a leader.
You're being a warm body and maybe a manager at best.
And I break up the types of principals into four levels.
The warm body, which is just there doing whatever the district says, and they're essentially.
Just to figure your head.
They don't mean anything.
They don't do anything.
They're a warm body.
I don't think many principals are there.
Most principals, I think, fall into the manager level, which is one step above where they're just making sure that things continue on, that they go right.
They're not making any real deep decisions.
They're doing whatever they're told, but they're a little bit more than a warm body.
They're actually managing and making sure people are being as successful as they can in the system.
The leader is the next level up, and that's someone who is.
They're casting a vision and saying, this is where we want to go and this is what we wanna do.
But they're still saying, oh, I can't do that.
My hands are tied.
That kind of stuff.
And the designer is the one who is the top level, the Transformative Principal who is saying, here's what we're gonna make happen.
And if there's a problem or a rule or a policy that prevents it, we're gonna find a way to do what needs to be done in spite of that, while still like not risking all of our jobs, not putting kids in harm's way.
So don't get any crazy ideas people.
That's not what I'm talking about.
What I'm talking about is finding a way to make good things happen for kids.
Even when the district inertia, the bureaucracy is against what you're doing.
And I did that as a principal and I know many other principals who do that also.
It's very possible and the things you talk about, immersive tools like VR do play.
A critical role in that thing because there's an expense to that.
There's a different approach and style of teaching that has to go along with that.
And if you want to really serve your students well then you have to take those risks and do those things to help them be successful.
And that's what Transformative principles do.
Who are designers of their schools?
Shannon Putman: that's incredible.
And I love that breakdown, especially 'cause I've had a couple of different principles in my tenure and I've seen kind of a couple different levels and what's.
Always been kind of shocking to me was the principals who you think were those leaders and Transformative, but they were doing it to as, 'cause they saw your school as a, a stepping stone.
So they wanted to like, take this, you know, low performing school, turn it around, and then move up the chain.
And so it's hard 'cause it's like, well they did some good things and, but they now just up and left.
So how do you, so I, I understand from the, the admin side, so then.
How do you, uh, give advice to like your, you know, your classroom staff and everything for when that leader is the one that is always
changing or coming in like to handle so that they keep, you know, 'cause like schools have their own kind of personality and things like that.
So how can the, you know, the non-administrative staff embrace the Transformative principle?
Jethro Jones: Well, I think to, to the point about revolving doors of admin coming and going and not being there very long, that is a complicated question that
has to do with sometimes the district leadership asking for something and then not being happy when they do get it, asking for something and then not getting it.
And so there.
You know, districts are as much at fault in that role as the principal is who's seeking a new position.
What I would say is that you need to be clear about what your goal is when you go in there as a principal, that's your responsibility as a leader.
If this is a stepping stone you need to say, this is a stepping stone, and be clear about why you're making the changes you're making.
For the purpose of you going to the district office, you don't have to be like this.
This is pointless for me because I'm just trying to get to the district office or become a superintendent.
No, you need to be clear.
I want to be a superintendent, and so I'm doing these things to help prepare me for that.
That's a lot easier to stomach than somebody coming in and saying, I'm gonna be here forever, and then two years later they're gone because they are chasing another job.
There's nothing wrong with chasing another job and climbing up the ladder.
What the problem is when you're not honest and clear about that, and so in the way that I say, principals need to be designers, teachers also need to be designers of their own
classrooms, and they need to do the same things that I'm advising principals to do, which is they need to be clear about what they want, and if they want to be a teacher forever, then.
They should say that if they want to be a principal someday, they should say that and say, this is what I'm trying to do, and they
should be open and clear about what their goals and ambitions are to the parents, to the students, to the, to their leaders as well.
That helps everybody when there's that openness and honesty and clarity about what our goal is.
Because as a principal, when I see a teacher who wants to be in a leadership position.
I want to give them more leadership opportunities to get the skills that they need to grow and succeed in that.
If somebody says they want to be a teacher forever, then I'm going to protect them from those leadership responsibilities so they can really dive in and do the best work that they can there.
And our problem is that we think that it we've done this stupid thing in education where we've said somebody's going to the dark side by being.
An administrator that is so dumb.
What an idiotic thing to say, and yet people say that all the time, and all that does is create this barrier and this divide between the leadership and the frontline staff who are doing the very majority of the work.
Everybody's job is hard.
If you really care.
If you don't care, being a principal, being a teacher is really quite easy because you clock in, you clock out, and then you go about your business with everything else.
So I think those who are really Transformative need to be designers.
The teachers, the principals, both.
They need to be clear about what their goals are, where they're trying to go, and what they're trying to do.
And if they can be, then everybody around them is going to be better because there's not this hidden agenda.
But they can influence others.
They can help others, and others can help them as well.
Shannon Putman: I'm just taking it all in.
'cause it is, it's truly I'm kind of flabbergasted 'cause it's so like ingenious, yet it never happens.
And the idea of somebody just being open and honest is so refreshing and would be so welcomed.
Especially like you said, it doesn't, it's not a bad thing like, you know.
Drive and everything is there.
It is not bad, but you can do good while you're there.
And that honesty is what helps to support that.
And I think part of that might come from, and I don't know how it is in like.
Every school district, but in the district I was in, principals had a lot of power and I thought it was an inordinate amount of power for what was happening.
Like if a principal didn't like you, they could make your life miserable and they could either prevent you from going to another school or basically drive you out of the school that you were in.
And I just felt like that was too much power for like one person to have and there wasn't checks and balances.
So do you think that some people are.
Hesitant to try to become some of these Transformative people.
'cause they're worried about their job and being, I mean, one principal made it very personal and it was bad so.
Jethro Jones: and that happens all the time, Shannon.
And what that person is is essentially a warm body or a manager who may think that they're doing what the district wants 'em to do.
The reality is that.
Well, let me tell you it from this perspective.
I was a very good teacher, but.
I got bored with it very quick because I knew how to engage the kids and get them doing cool things very quickly.
And then for me, that was boring.
So what I wanted to do was I wanted to help other teachers do that, which was much more challenging because I had to basically convince teachers that they needed to be designers.
I wasn't perfect at that and I screwed up numerous times, and I was one of those principles to people that you're talking about, which I greatly regret because I didn't see the bigger picture.
So I feel badly about that, and that really stinks.
But I was at a. It I was working for in the district office and I wanted to transfer to another department in the district.
And my boss in that position did not want to lose me even though my job was being eliminated.
Because I made it eliminated because I said, we don't actually need this position.
And so he said just going over to that other department.
It does not mean that you're going to get a job as a principal after you do that.
And I was like, there we go.
That he knows where I'm trying to go.
I have been clear about my expectations, my desires, and I'm making like I'm very clear about that.
That was a really powerful thing for me to realize that he understood what I was trying to do because I had been clear that I wanted to be a principal.
And so when he said that, what I realized was that he was going to be a blocker in my life and that he was not, it was not worth it to try to keep him in my life because.
He was gonna prevent me from getting to where I wanted to be.
Now, maybe he was right.
Turns out he was not.
Right Because after one year in that other department, I did get an assistant principal job just like I had wanted to.
And so that situation where he was a blocker I just had to separate myself from that.
And here's the thing, Shannon, if you really want to be a teacher, there are thousands of teaching positions.
And that may mean that you need to be uncomfortable and move to a different school, maybe even move to a different state, maybe even move to a different country.
But the thing is, you can, there are so many positions out there, you can go find a place that works better for you.
And if you think that the only place that you can teach is.
In the district that you're currently in, then maybe you need to reexamine and say, there's other districts that I could go work in, and
we get these golden handcuffs of tenure and retirement that just serve to, to lock us in into a situation that may not be good for us.
So.
Teachers have a great sense of power, or should have a great sense of power now because there's so many teaching shortages.
And so a teacher should be able to go essentially wherever they want and do the things that they want to do because it's so hard to find teachers and so many schools are missing out on.
They have to have long-term subs.
And so if you're willing and you want to do that work, you should be able to go find a place to do it.
Shannon Putman: You're absolutely right, especially about the 10 year and retirement, like, you know, being from Syracuse one through 2, 1 5, I you know, I started paying into social security when I started lifeguarding at 15.
And so then when I. Ended up in Kentucky and in the teacher system, they were like, oh, we don't pay Social Security.
I'm like, what are you talking about?
I didn't know that.
Like, teachers pay into the retirement system and not social security.
I'm like, what?
And so to me that was kind of, mind boggling as well.
And I hear from colleagues all the time.
They're like, well, I've got three years, or I've got eight.
You know, and it's like.
I get it though.
I get both sides of it.
And I think that system in and of itself, like you said, keeps us locked in.
And also, you know, I felt, I always felt bad, you know, there was teachers that were not, were barely a warm body, and they'd be like, well, she needs her health insurance.
I don't care.
Like these kids are suffering because she needs health insurance.
Like that's a problem with our system too.
We're not gonna go off on that tangent, but I feel like education isn't that job that you should do just because you can't do anything else.
Jethro Jones: Yeah and you are in control of your own life, regardless of what's going on.
You get to make choices and this is something that unfortunately our education system has kind of forced out of teachers believing like they think that they're at the mercy of the principal or the district and really.
They're not, they're still in control of their own life and they can still make their own decisions and they should feel empowered about that.
When I moved to Alaska and became a principal, I was there and every, and it was one of the first years that I didn't get the tier two.
Retirement and everybody there was like, oh man, you're on tier three.
That's such a bummer.
What a, what an opportunity you're missing out on.
'cause the tier two was pension.
Tier three was a 4 0 3 B. Well, you know what happened when I left Alaska, all of that money that I put into my retirement came with.
So instead of me being locked to the state of Alaska, like I was in Utah where I had eight years of service in Utah, that is going to
result in a pension that's going to be impossibly small because I'm probably not going to go back to the public education system in Utah.
Th that money is all still stuck in that system.
But all the money that I put into my retirement in Alaska went with me when I left, and I still have it building and growing interest in my retirement account right now, which is a really amazing thing.
And those golden handcuffs that would keep me in Utah.
And always in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, well, if I went back to Utah and did.
12 more years.
I could at least be at 20.
And, but then I'm like, then I have to do 12 more years to get to that point.
And that's a long time.
Maybe I don't want to do that.
And those are the things, those are the questions you have to ask and think about.
And a lot of people were like, this is such a bummer for you.
And yet.
I can now take my retirement with me, which is a beautiful thing, totally off the topic of what we're talking about.
But you know, the, those are the kinds of decisions that you have to make and you have to be aware of in this profession.
Shannon Putman: I don't think anything's off topic.
'cause this is an edu you know, this is for everybody.
So, no, I like that.
And it has me thinking, 'cause I currently right now have money locked up in the Kentucky teacher retirement system and it's like, what do I do with it?
You know, like, am I gonna go back and, you know, and so those are, you know, very critical decisions, especially nowadays with everything being so uncertain and, you know, and education and just everything in general, you know?
Decisions are harder.
And so I think that also all of that and everything we've been talking about, I think is just in, you know, post COVID and everything.
I think, you know, educators have kind of taken a beating and so I think then when we start to talk about new technology and like VR and stuff, I think they're just like.
I get it.
Like I'm sick of the next new thing, you know?
And so how do you see, you know, being able to balance like innovation and all of this great stuff that's out there with teachers just being like, ah, just let me teach math.
You know, like, let me teach addition and, you know, adding is adding, they don't have to subtract to add, like, how do we, how do you know, how do we keep 'em motivated to and inspired?
Jethro Jones: Yeah, this come back, comes back to personal choice and responsibility and accountability.
You have to want that, and regardless of what headwinds are out there for you as a teacher, you have to be able to say, this is what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.
You have to have a clear moral purpose and stick to that moral purpose that is going to be strong no matter what.
Headwinds you may encounter and this is very possible and it is very life giving.
When you do that, you can put up with a lot of crap if you have.
This belief that what you're doing really matters and that you're really making an impact.
And if you can stay focused on that and have your own values that you adhere to, that you pay attention to, then even if people disagree with them, then you're still in a good spot where you can say, I'm doing good for these kids.
And what you have to be careful about, especially in our politicized world, is that you are.
Truly doing what is best for the kids, not just what you think is best for the kids.
So for an example, I had a teacher one time who was complaining about a student and and was just causing all kinds of, this kid was causing all kinds of grief.
And the teacher was really upset and I said to the teacher, it sounds to me like you've given up on that kid.
And this teacher was so mad at me that I said that he said, I turned on my heel and walked away because I was gonna deck you if I didn't.
And he probably would've knocked me out.
He was bigger and stronger than me.
So, so that, that could have happened.
But for me, I was acting in the student's best interest.
This teacher did sound like he had given up on that kid, and this teacher was the only teacher that kid trusted.
If this teacher gave up on that kid, then there'd be nobody for the kid.
And so I said what that teacher needed to hear, even though it was uncomfortable for me to say it and for him to hear it, but he knew in his heart of hearts that's what needed to happen also.
And I don't say that to say like, I'm bragging or like I'm perfect at this.
I'm saying that to say.
Because I was aligned with my values of what is the best thing for this kid.
It's this teacher understanding that either he's given up on the kid or he hasn't, and he's the only one who can really decide that I need to say the difficult thing that could put me in a dangerous situation of this guy being really pissed at me as an adult.
And so I, I said it and he said, alright, I'm gonna.
Did I really give up on him?
No, I didn't.
So I'm gonna go stop complaining and I'm gonna stop trying to get Jethro to take care of this problem and I'm gonna start dealing with it.
And lemme tell you, that teacher and that student both flourished like crazy after that.
And the only thing that mattered in that situation was that I was committed to doing what was right for the student.
I had to say something hard to the adult, but because I was committed to doing what was right for the student, even if it put me in an awkward situation, even if it made me feel uncomfortable, it wasn't about what I wanted.
It was about what that student needed.
And to me, that is my moral purpose that keeps me going and helps me do the things that I need to do no matter what they are.
And if you have that, then that's great.
There are times when I have my own idea of what should be best, and I try to push my values onto the student, and every time I do that, it backfires and it's not what the student needs.
We need to be clear about when it's our beliefs that we're trying to push and when it is actually best for the student.
And sometimes what we think is best is not what is actually best for that student, and we need to be humble enough to say.
Okay, you're, this isn't right and I need to take a step back and that's hard to do.
Shannon.
Shannon Putman: That quote right there is gonna be my LinkedIn quote for when this episode drops because it's so true though it isn't about us, and we do have to be humble enough to understand that we aren't, you know, all knowing.
And we do make mistakes.
We're adults, you know, we're, I mean, we're human.
We make mistakes, you know?
But when you said, you know, it's not about you, that's what I always end up saying with people that like.
Don't believe in VR or don't believe in technology.
You know, teachers will be like, well, I don't, that's just a toy.
I don't believe in it.
I don't, you know, whatever.
And I'm like, I don't care.
It's not about you.
You need to take you out of it.
It's not about you.
And it's about, you know, and also, you know, like you said, being humble enough to know, okay, is this what's really best for the student?
Or is this just what I think is best for the student?
And I think that's hard, but I think having people in our lives that are honest with us, like you were with that educator, that's what we need.
It's like my best friend Emily, dude was amazing in college.
You know, I'd walk into her room and she'd take one look at me and she'd be like, Nope.
No change.
Like if I looked horrible in an outfit, you know, she'd tell me like, you know, like other friends would be, no, you look great.
Emily's like, Nope.
And that's the friends you need, you know, the one that isn't going to tell you, you know, so you don't end up on American Idol, like, and my, and saying, my mom says I'm a good singer.
Well, your mom didn't do you any favors, honey.
Jethro Jones: that's right.
Yep.
Shannon Putman: And you know, and so, like I said, I see that a lot with technology.
You know, like, like they can, they, you know, they.
They're like, well, I don't like technology.
Or, you know, I use my Google classroom.
I'm like, okay, that's great.
You know, we can keep advancing and just being open, you know, to, to the conversation and, you know, finding ways to reach your students.
I think that's always, you know, a challenge for people and they think they have to have control.
And what is it about this like power dynamic, do you think that exists in education that's like really prevalent?
Teachers will be like, well, he's not gonna win.
Like, well, you just argued with an 8-year-old for 15 minutes.
Like, what do you mean win?
And what are we winning?
You know, like
Jethro Jones: exactly.
Shannon Putman: where does that, like where do you think that like comes from?
Or how do we like deal with that?
Jethro Jones: Well, there.
There's a lot that could be said about power in schools.
And there, there is a lot about that.
And just like you were saying, how the principals have too much power, teachers have too much power over their students and can make their lives nightmares also.
And it, we don't have time to go into a ton of this, but the reality is that anytime that you are seeking to use your position to force someone to do something, you're in the wrong.
Like you ha have to recognize that they have to choose those things.
So if you're forcing technology on people, you're in the wrong.
If you are inviting them to participate and say, here, let's try this and see what's what happens, and you try the level you're comfortable with, that's.
That's the right thing.
You can always push them to go further and say and express confidence in them, but anytime you are trying to control someone because of your position or trying to force someone to do something because of your position, you are in the wrong.
That's just all there is to it.
And tell me a situation where you're forcing someone to do something they don't want to, and you are in the right.
Very rarely does that happen.
And even more rarely in schools.
So rarely does it happen in general and even more rarely in schools because typically people want to do good.
That is what, that's how we're all built.
We strive for that.
And so if somebody's not doing that, then.
Then there's something else that's blocking it and there's something else in the way.
But it's rare that is the case and there are sociopaths and they do exist and they can start very young as children.
And I've seen some of them, but even still deep down, that kid still wanted to do what was right and would prefer that over the negative things they were doing.
Shannon Putman: Yep.
No, that's incredibly spot on and it makes me kind of think about even how I approach people and stuff.
'cause I know sometimes I can be a little bit too forceful or you know, whatever.
Like I know this works, so you gotta use it like, 'cause I care.
Jethro Jones: and that's the key.
You know that it works.
And so you have to bring that person to it in a way that they can appreciate it, and that's what being a designer is all about.
If you are forcing them to do it, then you.
Probably at best, a manager you're saying, here's what you have to do.
But if you can invite them kindly and lovingly, that's the best for everybody.
Shannon Putman: A hundred percent.
I think that's a perfect kind of closing thought.
Absolutely.
I couldn't have scripted that any better.
And Yes.
So you, obviously this has been amazing.
Thank you so much.
I, you know, for everything you've done, first off, and I know for a fact I wouldn't be currently where I am without you, and you've had a profound impact on my career and I truly consider you a genuine friend, and I thank you.
For being the awesome, Transformative person that you are.
'cause you've transformed my life.
And so I'm incredibly blessed.
And so if anybody wants to like, check you out or you know, obviously I'll put links in the podcast and, you know, don't forget to like, and subscribe whatever you're supposed to say.
But you know, if they wanna, you know, reach out to you, collaborate with you, check out your books, like any place that you recommend they go.
Jethro Jones: Yeah, Jethro Jo, do Jethro Jones on all the social networks.
Jethro Jones dot com is my website.
Feel free to reach out anywhere.
I'm pretty easy to get ahold of.
So my phone number is even eight oh one seven Jethro.
So you can gimme a call and I'll answer so that yeah, pretty easy there.
So, Jethro.
I'm pretty easy to find.
Shannon Putman: I'm gonna try that later.
Yeah.
Nice.
And then of course we cannot, I can't let you go without the closing countdown.
And I think this is a good one.
It's a twist on a classic that I like this.
I, 'cause I know people have been asked this before, but I put a little twist on it so you can invite three historical figures to bar brunch, bottomless mimosa brunch, not dinner, bottomless mimosa brunch.
Who do you invite?
Jethro Jones: Okay, well, considering I don't drink,
Shannon Putman: You don't have to, and that's okay.
Jethro Jones: that would be, so I think,
Shannon Putman: You can have bottomless OJ
Jethro Jones: yeah, so, it, it would be a crime to not say Jesus Christ.
So I will start with that one.
The the next one would probably be my great-grandpa Tracy y Canon.
Who ran a school of music in Utah for about 20 years, and I'm just really fascinated in my own personal history.
And then, um, the third one would be my wife because I would just want her to be there with us for that.
So that would be my three.
Shannon Putman: Aw.
Well, I'll have to make sure I send her the episode or you send it to her so she knows you said that.
'cause I would not have said my husband.
Anybody that knows Jim, and Jim knows that's not a shock.
So, so good for you.
Good on you.
Good on you.
For sure.
Well, Jess, well seriously, thank you so much.
This was an absolutely.
Just soul healing conversation for me.
And so thank you and I hope that everybody enjoys it as much as I have and it's really made me even think about some things.
So thank you and I hope we'll get to do it again sometime.
Jethro Jones: Okay.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.